Transcript: Escape from the Forbidden Zone: Smuggling green and inclusive tech past the gatekeepers - Tech Forum 2026

Transcript: Escape from the Forbidden Zone: Smuggling green and inclusive tech past the gatekeepers - Tech Forum 2026

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  Shuvanjan Karmaker: Hello,everyone. Thank you for joining us for today's Tech Forum session. I'm Shuvanjan Karmaker, product coordinator at BookNet Canada. Welcome to Escape from the Forbidden Zone: Smuggling Green and Inclusive Tech Past the Gatekeepers. Before we get started, BookNet Canada acknowledges that its operations are remote, and our colleagues contribute their work from the traditional territories of the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishinaabe, the Haudenosaunee, the Wyandot, the Mi'kmaq, the Ojibwa of Fort William First Nation, the Three Fires Confederacy of First Nations, which includes the Ojibwa, the Ottawa, and the Potawatomi, the Métis, as well as the unceded and unancestral territory of the Musqueam, Squamish, or Tsleil-Waututh peoples. The original nations and peoples of lands we call Beeton, Brampton, Guelph, Halifax, Thunder Bay, Toronto, Vancouver, Vaughan, and Windsor. We encourage you to visit native-land.ca website to learn more about the peoples whose land you are joining from today. Moreover, BookNet endorses the Calls to Action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada, and supports an ongoing shift from gatekeeping to space-making in the book industry. The book industry has long been an industry of gatekeeping. Anyone who works at any stage of the book supply chain carries a responsibility to serve readers by publishing, promoting, and supplying works that represent the wide extent of human experiences and identities in all its complicated intersectionality. We at BookNet are committed to working with our partners in the industry as we move towards a framework that supports space-making, which ensures that marginalised creators and professionals all have the opportunity to contribute, work, and lead. If during the presentation you have questions, please use the Q&A panel found in the bottom menu. Now, let me introduce our speaker, James Christie. James has been thinking and presenting on digital sustainability since 2013, when he wrote one of the first mainstream articles on the topic for "A List Apart" magazine. Subsequently, he founded SustainableUX, a virtual conference for all kinds of environmentally minded digital folk. He's originally from the publishing world, having gotten his start at Harcourt Education UK, where he specialised in web and software accessibility. Currently, James is based near Oxford, UK, and is working on digital accessibility for museums, and as a digital sustainability consultant. Right. Over to you, James. James Christie: Hey, everyone. Wow. Thank you for that kind introduction. I'm just going to remember how to share slides. One sec. That looks like it's working. Great. Okay. So, with a talk title like this one, you might be wondering what it is exactly that you signed up for. And by the way, this talk does have quite a U.S.A. slant, although I can guarantee at least 10% Canadian content exclusively as well, but hopefully relevant to everybody anyway. So, just to give you an idea of what we are getting into, here's a visual. What sort of talk is this? Is this a let's overthrow capitalism talk, or is it, you know, just more purely technical? I have to sort of set the scene for this because sustainability is inescapably political. So, it's
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  kind of unavoidable.Sorry. So, that said, I'd rate this session as a two out of five on the spicy scale. So, sort of a biryani level of spice. This is mostly a practical talk. And here's the outline of what I'm going to be talking about is our agenda. We're going to have a little bit of background on the energy demands of the internet and its carbon footprint. We'll talk about emerging laws. There's a plot twist. And then the bulk of the talk will be how we actually go about doing web sustainability work despite roadblocks. So, you've already heard most of my backstory there. Yes, I was in educational publishing in the UK, moved to the U.S. about 15 years ago, then just moved back. Enjoyed my time working in UX in America. But I had a bad case of burnout caused by cognitive dissonance. Most of my clients were for profit. But really, what I wanted to do is get into climate work. And I couldn't find a way in. So, that changed for me when I read an article about the carbon footprint of the internet. And I realised there was a way for me to try and marry my work skills with my climate concern. So, about that footprint, I have to do this slide differently for each presentation because the numbers only go up. As a whole, the internet has a big footprint, roughly 4% of all global electricity goes to powering it. Four percent is still millions of tons of CO2 a year, and it's growing fast. Ten years ago, we would have said that the internet had a carbon footprint similar to that of Poland, but especially thanks to AI, that's increased a lot. I saw a new factoid today. In Ireland, a quarter of all electricity now goes to data centres, and it's causing all kinds of problems as a result. This is particularly a problem because most of the internet is still fossil fuel powered, at least sort of 60% to 75% of that. So, that was the problem as I saw it is I work on the internet, what can I do about it? What can designers do specifically? So, turns out, web design can be linked to that overall internet carbon footprint. And you can see that when you look at this graph of the average size of the webpage, how we've added a lot of data to each page. I think we've grown from about fourfold...no, sixfold, I'm sorry, since 2010. The average page was below 500 kilobytes. Today, it's more like three megabytes per page. The why is simple. We've got faster internet now, bigger monitors, or at least the people who design websites have bigger monitors. So, designers and businesses now expect websites to be loaded, right, full-screen videos, high-resolution images, and so on. Essentially, we're filling up all our new bandwidth just as fast as it can be created. So, I'll introduce you to a handy tool here. This is part of a report from Ecograder. And it shows you the breakdown of assets on an average webpage. And all of these are numbers that designers can directly influence. When we look at the aesthetics of a modern page, images and web fonts can be, you know, 1.5 megabytes of the average page weight, most of the choices that designers are making impacting that way. Another big number is the amount of JavaScript, which is often more than 30% of the average page weight. And most of that is not being used for user features. It's for tracking scripts and third party marketing tools and chatbots and so on. These are all commercial technologies that don't serve the user necessarily. They're being served at the expense of the user and the environment. So, a bit more on Ecograder, it does this analysis of web content, and calculates impact. It's a free tool. Here's another part of its report. This time, we're looking at Amazon to give you an
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  idea. So, Ecograderhas estimated the carbon impact of one of the webpages on amazon.com. And I won't go into how they do this math, except it's wicked scientific and valid. But what this equates to is 3 grams per view, which if you've got a million page views, it's 31 tonnes of CO2, you know, being burned into power, you know, both the servers and the user devices to view this content. And of course, Amazon has a lot more than 1 million views a day. So, my message back in 2013 was really straightforward. Simple logic, storing and transmitting data requires electricity. And to create electricity, we burn fossil fuels, which releases CO2. So, reduce data, reduce CO2. And the rest of it was, well, how do we reduce data? And, yeah, that piece is really the sort of aesthetic concerns of web design. There's lots of ways to reduce the data overhead of other website. And that was a sort of conference talk and article that I would write sort of 10 years ago, would be about that. To that, and I ultimately launched my own conference, SustainableUX, which ran for four years, lives on as a website. And something interesting happened. Today, I was actually reviewing some of the many topics that we covered at SustainableUX, and realised something that I hadn't necessarily at the time, that my speakers have very quickly moved beyond that simple paradigm of data equals CO2. And they'd matured the conversation into something much more varied and wide ranging. So, this is a partial list of the topics that we now link to the broader idea of digital sustainability. This field has expanded to include everything from process and regulation, to corporate reporting. And it even touches on urban planning, environmental justice, steampunk, one of my favorites. I am not qualified to talk about all of these things. I can have a good go at talking about these highlighted items as a UX designer. So, my conference ended in 2019. But by then, lots of other people had got on board with the idea of web sustainability. I wasn't truly a pioneer. There are lots of people in the green software world, for instance. Anyway, thanks to events like mine and many others, these people found each other and decided to do something about this. This is an internet footprint issue. And one of the initiatives that sort of sprang up grassroots were the Web Sustainability Guidelines. So, this group of volunteers joined the World Wide Web Consortium, started working on a standard, and issued the first draft of it last year. For any of you familiar with the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, this document will probably look very recognizable. It's the same sort of thing. Now, the Web Sustainability Guidelines, WSG, isn't at the same level of officialness as WCAG for the content accessibility guidelines, but it's getting there. And it's certainly comprehensive in that it lists 70 guidelines with a success criteria, covering user experience, designing content, web development, front end, back end, hosting and infrastructure, and even the broader picture of what makes work possible and the purpose of products and websites with their product management and business strategy sections. Now, that's a lot to remember. But here's a much simpler way of thinking about it for me, which is the row of pictures at the top are the more immediate concerns to do with reducing
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  the amount ofcarbon that is burnt to power the internet. So, where are we hosting our websites, the infrastructure, the sort of experience we're designing and how streamlined it is, how we're coding our websites, and what sort of content and aesthetics we're choosing to put on our pages, along with the implications of the data there. The bottom row might not be as obvious. The first one there, the takeout fork, that's to do with product choice. So, a UX designer designing a takeout food website, for instance, might include the option to omit the cutlery. It's a small little nudge, but one that's got a real world sustainability impact. Higher level than that, we've got the Juicero. This is a product that did not need to exist, and in fact failed fairly quickly. It was a very environmentally intensive way of getting a cup of juice. With a decent product process in place, maybe this product could have been prevented from happening. The last awesome graphic here is policy and governance, you know, the less exciting but completely essential pieces that make the whole thing hang together. So, we're now armed with a blueprint for web sustainability. So, now, we can turn our attention to how. How are we going to put this into practice? And this is one area I do have a lot of experience in, of trying to persuade stakeholders to incorporate either accessibility or sustainability into their workflows. And here's how that went. So, not immediately successful, is how I would describe this. Why? You could probably guess, but it's a fundamental disconnect. I was talking to product teams rather than business owners most of the time. And product teams do not have very much bandwidth, even if they're very well- intentioned. There generally is not the capacity to take on an extra set of requirements that isn't being explicitly demanded. Also, there's a structural gap. Products and development orgs are usually sitting not very close to corporate social responsibility folk. So, the public pledges the company makes about sustainability haven't in the past linked to, you know, what the development team is doing. Well, I wasn't too disheartened because I knew that ultimately the law would come through because I had seen the same story play out with web accessibility 10 years earlier. We had a similar challenge then, which is we had a robust standard for accessibility, but it was never a business priority. It was viewed as a fringe concern, not a core requirement. Fortunately, the law caught up. Legislation moved accessibility from being nice to have to a necessity. And that gave me hope because I was starting to see the same thing happening in terms of legislation for sustainability. And here's what that looked like. So, if we look at progress in accessibility, just over the last few years, we have increasingly strong legal measures like the Equality Act or the Web Accessibility Directive, or the toughest one yet, the European Accessibility Act, which came into force last year. And not to forget, the Accessible Canada Act. So, sustainability law is not as mature or defined, but the gap is beginning to close. For example, the California Climate Corporate Data Accountability Act came into force this year, and it requires large companies to do a full accounting of their carbon footprint, which includes Scope 3 emissions. Scope 3 is really everything about how your product is being used, and your digital services. So, suddenly, website energy data centre use is a line item in a legal audit. So, that's California, but there were similar moves afoot in Europe as well. So,
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  all we haveto do is wait for the law to catch up, and then we can get on with being sustainable. Right? This is where the plot twist comes in. Can you guess what it is? Yeah. So, last year, we started getting impacted, all of us one way or another, by executive orders like this one, trying to overturn a lot of the progress we'd seen in sustainability and accessibility. This one targets accessibility and the rest of DE&I. Now, I don't think they had a vendetta against the W3C, but it was definitely collateral damage in that campaign, and it really started to feel like we were sliding backwards fast. This is the new administration's technology transition team. They did not waste any time. They got into the server rooms and started deleting anything that sounded like it might be DE&I related. The canary in the coal mine, the White House used to have quite a nice accessibility resource page, and that vanished very early on. Followed closely by many federal initiatives, and then funding being cut for various nonprofits. And as a result, a lot of preemptive self-censoring started to happen, businesses closing their or shelving their DE&I programmes to stay out of the spotlight. And eventually, that reached me and my team as well. This is how it played out for me. I was working on an inclusive design strategy for an unnamed project to make sure that the end result would be as accessible and inclusive as we could make it. One day, we hear from a stakeholder who tells us, please stop using the word inclusive, call it something else, you know, we might be audited on this. Well, we didn't want to scrap our work. So, we had a minor brainwave and just changed some of the terminology. Our inclusive design strategy became a usability strategy instead, literally find and replace inclusive for usable. And that was non-controversial and worked, and got us our pass. So, basically, we were still doing accessibility work, but just under the umbrella of good practices. But then it was sustainability's turn. This new order authorised the Attorney General to go after any organization having a position on climate change, basically. So, sustainability became another word that we couldn't use. We couldn't mention the climate, and you definitely couldn't mention any other sort of environmental social governance initiatives. Once again, businesses were very quick to start toeing the line and rolling back their renewable commitments, which leaves us wondering how we're going to power all these new servers. There's a huge shortfall in generation capacity for all these new data centres that are going up, partly because of all the renewables that have been canceled by the government in the States. Well, we're not going to let them stop us, though. This isn't a hopeless situation. As you saw maybe with the accessible to usable example, there are still ways to get sustainability work done even in this environment. And here's how. Basically, we just disguise the Web Sustainability Guidelines, and that disguise comes in three parts. Firstly, accessibility. Secondly, web performance. And then lastly, applying best practices. Our disguise is complete. So, what do I mean by that? Well, accessibility, the legislation, wherever you are in the world, your accessibility legislation pretty much always points back to WCAG, the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines from the W3C. And that is
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  still in forceeven in America. DE&I might have gone away, but the ADA legislation is still in place. They haven't managed to get rid of it yet. So, perhaps handily, since they're from the same organization, a lot of WCAG, the accessibility guidelines, map cleanly onto the Web Sustainability Guidelines. So, in other words, by doing our legally required accessibility work, we can advance sustainability, too. But you might be thinking, we've already fixed accessibility. There's nothing more to be done there. Right? We've been hearing about it for decades. Well, no. The web just keeps getting bigger, and websites are still broken. This was the top million home pages...sorry, top million websites in the world. Most of them have one or more failures in compliance against WCAG, the most common of which is low contrast text. Example of what I mean is the home page for the second most valuable company in the world. It's the same page viewed through a accessibility evaluation plugin, and it shows the various features and failures of accessibility. So, this company, you'll never guess who they are, can't get it right. So, we can't be complacent about accessibility. Let's try putting these two things together. This is section two of the Web Sustainability Guidelines. I've condensed it down. Otherwise, it's quite long. There are 21 guidelines. Now, if we overlay accessibility, we can account for 7 of those 21 straightaway. For example, reduce downloadable documents. Well, PDFs are very difficult to make accessible in the first place. So, it's good guidance to try and avoid them, and use an accessible format in the first place. Okay. So, 7 out of 21. What else can we do? So, web performance was the second thing I mentioned. If you're not familiar, this is simply, how fast can you get your website to load as a site owner? Because very small changes and improvement can lead to good business outcomes like higher conversion. Conversely, slow websites turn users off and they leave, or they lose their flow state very quickly if it's taking a while to load. And again, many companies are not following good practice on this. So, let's slap that on top of the sustainability guidelines. And sure enough, we knock off another five of the guidelines from doing that. The sustainable approach for imaging assets, etc., lines up perfectly with web optimization techniques. And businesses love this stuff. It saves money, it makes money. The carbon saving is an added bonus, but we don't have to tell them that. What else can we do? Best practices. So, these are all the things that we say we're going to do, but often don't do for bandwidth or other reasons. So, these are a bit eat your vegetables in product development. We all know we should document our projects properly, and we know it will save time, effort, and energy in the future. We don't do it, but we try. And hopefully, these guidelines will help us try harder. Put it all together and what do you have? We've accounted for all of the section two guidelines, except for maybe two, and you could probably find a way to finagle those if you really tried. Now, there's five sections to the Web Sustainability Guidelines. I will quickly move through the rest of them. Section three is all about web development, front-end web development. I checked with some developers, and they all agreed that all of these are already best practice. So, no reason not to do them. Similarly, if we look at section four, hosting infrastructure and
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  systems, again, mostlycommon sense best practice from particularly the web performance optimization point of view. The glaring exception here is user sustainable hosting provider, i.e., renewable powered. Now, increasingly, that is an option anyway. It doesn't need to cost more, depending on where you are hosted. However, Google, and Amazon, and Microsoft have recently rolled back some of their zero carbon promises because they just cannot keep up with the energy demands of AI. Anyway, we're on a roll here. So, let's go on to section five. This is where it falls apart. Section five covers product purpose and organizational purpose, which is quite a reach. And honestly, many of these are very hard at the best of times. And certainly, if an organization is trying to avoid scrutiny for DE&I practices, it's a non-starter. But let's add it up. I would call this a B plus, or maybe a B minus. We have met 49 of our 70 guidelines. And along the way, we've achieved quite a lot. So, these are the numbers the business does care about. Firstly, you've reduced risk of a very expensive accessibility lawsuit. You've improved performance. The site started converting better. More users stuck around. They spent more money because the performance was better. And you've updated your product management practices, meaning less expensive updating and less maintenance. And along the way, you saved some carbon as well. That's all thanks to the power of reframing. Okay. So, that's what we can do just by effectively doing our jobs properly. Sometimes we need to get a little bit trickier. I mentioned earlier how we had salvaged a design strategy by reframing it as a usability strategy, which is an accurate way of describing accessibility. It's making things usable for more people. Here's my cheat sheet of other useful words to substitute instead of words that might trigger the gatekeepers. So, how to sound like good business instead of woke nonsense. Inclusive design becomes usability. Inclusion is market share. Accessibility is search engine optimization. And sustainability is efficiency. We can go even more tactical with this as well. Alt tags, image description tags, that's even more SEO. Assistive technology, well, that's connecting with our younger demographic. Now, it's gamepad compatible, too. And we don't need to say green hosting. We could say resilience. But I didn't want my closing message here today to be how to lie to get ahead in business. That's not really the message here. All these things are of benefit to your parent organization. But also, here's some optimism, cheerful postscript for this talk. So, number one, the U.S. isn't really that hostile a place to talk about sustainability. Most U.S. citizens are concerned about climate change. And the numbers in Canada are even better, 15% more climate concern than your Southern neighbors. And I learned a fun fact recently about this, which is, although people are concerned, they tend to underestimate how concerned other people are. They think, I'm concerned, but the guy down the street isn't. And that's part of what slows down progress on these issues. Secondly, a lot of companies didn't shut down their sustainability commitments. Some of them even doubled down, including the all-important institutional investors. And then lastly here...not lastly. Ultimately, the world has woken up to the fact that progress can't stop just because the U.S. is having a few issues.
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  So, your owngovernment mentions digital sustainability as a policy goal, as part of the Digital Nations Initiative. And gradually, we're seeing the advent of proper planning, urban planning, and policy sort of catching up with our digital reality. A huge part of the energy footprint of the internet goes on heating and cooling, well, cooling the hot data centres. If you're smart about where you put your data centre, you can find a use for that heat. One of my favorites there in that diagram shows how data centres can be split up and moved into your home to heat your water. Well, there was meant to be a thank you and Q&A slide here, but there isn't. Don't know where it's gone. So, I think that's the end of my talk. Thank you all very much for listening. Shuvanjan: Thank you so much, James. I really loved your bit about progress over perfection. And that kind of puts us in the right mindset to approach all the different advices and things that you shared with us today. Is it okay with you if we move on to the Q&A section? James: Absolutely. Shuvanjan: Amazing. So, for our first question, we have someone asking, how do you envision digital sustainability will continue to develop in the near future? James: Well, the standards are continuing to develop and get more and more streamlined. And there's a big push by sustainability folks to get that message out to the educators, the folks who train the next generation of designers and developers so they can start incorporating those things. But really what makes me the most hopeful is, again, legislation in that those reporting requirement changes that we're seeing are beginning to explicitly cover digital as well. And I think the whole debate around AI in society has really brought this home for people in terms of literally communities running out of electricity because of AI. So, it's becoming a mainstream concern. Shuvanjan: Thank you. That leads us to our next question. And this is about the resources that's required for operating and developing large language models or what we know as AI at this point. Something that requires so much natural resources has a role to...does this have a role to play in making business operations more sustainable? James: That's a great big controversial topic. So, the people who sell AI will often tell you that you shouldn't worry about the energy cost because AI will help us solve the climate challenge. However, so far, there's no evidence of that. And in fact, the opposite is true. One of the major beneficiaries of AI is the oil and gas exploration industry. So, AI has managed to make fracking 20% more effective, for instance. So, AI, as well as having its own energy footprint, is turning a large profit in one sector, which is oil and gas. So, having said that, there are some companies offering green AI. In other words, they can show that their model was developed using renewable power only, and that they host their instances renewably as well. But still, that's just a tiny fraction of the polluting whole. Shuvanjan: Thank you. This brings us, I guess, another segue to the next question. Do you have any tips for employees who are not in leadership positions to help move their peers from indifferent to engaged? You've shared a lot of different techniques to talk about
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  accessibility in termsof business models and how to... Is there anything else that you would want to share with anyone who's not in a leadership position? James: Yeah. I'm a big believer in sort of lateral influence. You know, maybe you're in a development team, maybe you've just made a website optimization, and you can show, oh, there's a speed increase. And that's where you can litter in some facts about the CO2 that was also saved. So, that's where people go. They don't feel challenged by that. They don't feel they're getting into a difficult political conversation. It's just like, oh, we reduced the energy needs, too. So, you just sort of spread the idea that way. And generally, people aren't anti things like accessibility and sustainability. They're just overwhelmed. So, giving people, you know, access to peer-to-peer training is often another way into these topics that helps a lot. And this one will sound silly, but it worked for me in at least one company, which was, you know, start a sustainability discussion in chat, and see where it goes. Shuvanjan: Thank you. The next question is more about people working in publishing industry. And we know the publishing industry, there's...resources are finite. And we're all trying to accomplish a lot of different missions throughout the year for many different goals. What's the one thing you would recommend starting with that would make the most impact for a time-strapped team? James: I guess, depends on are you producing...you know, how big are your digital operations in this case? So, I can't really speak about wood pulp or book distribution. But what you can look at is your digital footprint. And the tool I mentioned earlier, Ecograder, is one quick way of getting a snapshot of what's going on in terms of are your digital operations sustainable or not. And that could start a conversation about where you're hosting your website, or it could start a conversation in your marketing department as to what is the most effective way of marketing things. Do we need lots and lots of video or do...you know, could we actually pivot to animation or something that uses less data? Yeah. It all depends on the scale of your operations. If you're Amazon, then making a small design change has a huge impact. But if you're a boutique publisher, and you don't have so much web traffic, then I say, don't spend a lot of effort optimizing your website. Well, do, because it will drive more business for you, but it won't make a big climate impact. Shuvanjan: Thank you. And that kind of brings us to our next one. This is very specific about file format. Someone asked, if PDFs aren't very accessible and downloading is a larger energy cost on the website, what would be a better format? James: So, yeah. This is more about the accessibility. Although many PDFs are poorly optimised and therefore too large as well. HTML is, you know, the one that is easy to restyle and reflow for the web. It's obviously not very good for protected content. But, yeah, that's the light one. Shuvanjan: Thank you. The next question we have is, aesthetics are important, and it seems that one of the best ways to make a website sustainable is to simplify it, which can lead to compromising in design. Do you recommend communicating this to users to also create awareness about these type of changes, like adding a level of transparency because of your choices?
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  James: Yeah. That'sa very interesting one. So, the awareness piece, kind of going backwards, that often comes from the sort of website footage you see saying, this is a low carbon website. And maybe somebody's interested and finds out what that means. In my experience doing web usability, users will notice if something looks credible. If a doctor...if a medical website looks amateur, then they're less likely to want to go to that doctor. There's a credibility piece there. So, graphic design in a professional context has to look professional, but it can look minimalist. There's a lot of design trends, like image carousels or full-bleed video that are very popular but do not actually convert. They don't convince users of anything apart from generally annoying them in most cases. So, I would kind of change that question to, you know, what are you losing by applying some minimalism or more of a lo-fi aesthetic to what you're doing? If it speeds up your website, usually, that gives you a measurable improvement in user engagement. And that's the business plus there. Yeah. You still need to see, if you go too far, it might hurt user sentiment, but you really have to try hard to make it look that bad. Shuvanjan: That's true. Thank you. And this is our last question, and this is kind of nice because we're ending on a note of hope. You've mentioned hope. And are you hopeful about AI? And how do you speak with others about hope in doing their work in terms of sustainability and technology? James: Yeah. I mean, people who deal in sustainability have a lot of burnout. And there's shelves of books out there talking about how to, you know, avoid that burnout or climate grief. I guess, my less hopeful answer is, I try not to think about it. In terms of how to help other people, I really like the model of handprints over footprints, helping people see, you know, the positive change that they can make. The classic example of that is taking a box of LED light bulbs home with you on Thanksgiving or something so that you can show somebody that they can save some energy in their home and save some money. Talking about footprints tends to just put people off, and particularly if you start talking about people's digital footprint. Have you seen these articles? Stop sending so many TikToks, it's destroying the environment. It's negligible. A person's individual digital footprint is really nothing compared to a hamburger or going for a road trip. It's only really when we look at scale, when we look at the internet giants, that you see that's where the carbon problem is. So, for people, I'd say concentrate on the good you can do. And, you know, I guess the next step from that is activism to help the organization to change. Shuvanjan: Thank you so much, James. That's a really great way to understand and end this conversation. It's a very positive note and, you know, a very hopeful way. But before we go, we'd love if you could provide feedback on this session. We'll drop a link to the survey in the chat. Please take a couple of minutes to fill it out. We'll also be emailing you a link to a recording of this session as soon as it's available. And to our attendees, we invite you to join our upcoming session, Transporting Book Subjects on the Move in the Canadian Market, scheduled for March 24. Find information about all upcoming events and recordings of previous sessions on our website, bnctechforum.ca.
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  Lastly, we'd liketo thank the Department of Canadian Heritage for their support through Canada Book Fund. And thanks to you all for attending. Thank you so much, James. And thank you, Dean. And thank you, Denika.